Significance of the DC Rally
Significance of the DC Rally
By Chris Littleton
The significance of the countless thousands that have rallied today in Washington DC is not what they will accomplish by their attendance – it’s the fact that it was necessary.
The media and talking heads – even the conservative ones – still don’t have a sense of what is happening in every neighborhood in the United States. This isn’t just a video clip or sound byte. It’s an ideological revolution.
People are defending their Republic.
Thousands didn’t march on Washington because they want to be there. They marched on Washington because duty demanded it. They feel an obligation to be there.
Most of us are in this fight out of obligation. Trust me – we all have better things to do. A core principle of conservatism is personal responsibility, and we assume that personal responsibility should be enough. Following this simple logic, a conservative concludes that “I care for myself, my family and those around me, therefore everyone else does the same.”
In a conservative’s mind, there is no need for additional government oversight or assistance because it only makes sense to do what you need to do for you and the people in your community. That’s it. Just that simple. That’s how we live our lives. Personal accountability to all who we touch.
So, by nature – cross country involvement to stand against government intervention, reckless fiscal policy and liberty compromising policies is very difficult, even when we don’t believe in those things. We just want to mind our own business, work hard, help our families and live out the American dream. Political activism is normally the farthest thing from our minds.
These countless numbers in DC are the culmination of years of frustration. People who normally do what society demands of them crossed a metaphorical line to say – enough is enough! I’ve got to push back. I won’t let this happen in my country anymore. The passive have now become the active.
When was the last time conservatives did something like this? I honestly can’t remember. Maybe never. Maybe we never felt it needed to happen. Maybe we never felt we would need to defend liberty in our own nation.
So, who is this waking giant?
Anyone who believes in the rights to: life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and know that this American Dream is only manifest by adhering to principles of: limited government, fiscal responsibility and free markets. Anything short of preserving these principles will result in the destruction of our Republic.
Notice these aren’t planks in the Republican or Democratic party platforms – because the people marching on DC as I write consider themselves Americans first, not members of political parties or special interests. They are uniting as Americans behind our common denominators.
This is the sleeping giant that has awoken – these are Americans. This is why unemployed citizens will be in the crowd. This is why small business owners will fill the streets. This is why union members will hold up signs about freedom. This is done because it isn’t about identifying as members of a certain group any longer. We are simply Americans fighting for our unique way of life.
Washington – if you want bi-partisan support of something – show us you actually believe in the America people to chart our own course. Show us you can leave us in peace to live out our American Dream. If you do this, you will have the support of these countless thousands.
And remember this – for every person who attended, there are a hundred that feel the same way which couldn’t make the trip. The freedom rally held in Cincinnati on September 5th drew near 18,000 people just 2 days before the President spoke on September 7th drawing only 4,500 people. The message of liberty outdraws the message of socialism 4 to 1. Still think people aren’t engaging?
If you do not show us you can defend our core principles – we will not go away. We will not stand down. We will continue to grow and grow until we have rebuilt this country in a form Thomas Paine called “…with the least expense and greatest benefit…”With or without, we will defend our Republic.
September 12th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
It’s funny. The TP’ers had proudly proclaimed that organizers expected between one and two million protesters would march on DC.
Then, the dopes over at RedState reduced the number of expected Tea Party holdovers heading to Washington D.C to a few hundred thousand.
Shortly after the morning began, a Fixed News commentator place the number of disgruntled Americans ready to march on the capitol at tens of thousands.
Now, CNN & Thw Washington Post are reporting that ‘thousands’ of people protesting the President’s health care plan made the trip to D.C today. They put the number at around 25,000
Forgive me, friends…but haven’t we danced this dance before? If the CTP is to be believed and 18,000 people came to their rally at the VOA, then just another 7000 more people came to the DC march. That’s pretty sad. Of course the truth is that just 5-6000 came to the VOA rally, and just 4-5 times that number came to DC. It’s clear that the TP movement is running out of steam. Your 15 minutes are almost up folks, enjoy it while it lasts.
September 12th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
I swear you are an idiot:
The message of liberty outdraws the message of socialism 4 to 1.
You are comparing an open event in a wide-open park in the middle of uber-suburban Liberty township to a ticketed event that was held in a closed auditorium that was limited to 4,500 seats.
On top of that, you wouldn’t know “socialism” if it landed on your front lawn.
Might I remind you that over 1 million of us traveled to New York to protest the RNC in 2004, and you people branded us all “unpatriotic” and “siding with the turrurists”.
Your puny national event that drew “tens of thousands” to DC is a tantrum, not a movement.
September 12th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
Couple things to address from both comments. We’ll stick to what we know for sure:
1. Socialism: Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
- Simply by definition, this is what has been happening to the United States for a great many years. Re-distribution of wealth is proposed on a much grander scale than ever with a government option in healthcare and proposed changes to an already too progressive tax system. Bailouts and ownership of private companies doesnt help anything.
2. In 2004, I never called anyone organizing at the RNC un-patriotic. I may not agree with the principles, but freedom of speech is hardly unpatriotic. I cant recall a single level headed person person saying people were “unpatriotic” for rallying together. Maybe nothing is ever so patriotic as the voice of the people in action.
3. 4500 vs. 18000 – 10,000 tickets were offered to AFL-CIO members for Obama speech. Morning of speech, location was changed to a much smaller venue and even there – it wasn’t full. See pictures from all news sources to verify what I’ve said.
As for the 18,000 at the VOA event. Crowd estimates are funny things. That’s why we don’t do them. That estimate was provided by the Butler County Sheriff. The article printing “6000″ in the enquirer was subsequently corrected. He was told from the Sheriff personally, yet still printed his number. The editor later forced the correction. I was involved in conversation with Sheriff and later correspondence with the enquirer, so this is a first hand account.
For some anecdotal information, I was present at the rally in Columbus on August 1st which drew 10,000 (confirmed and verified). Columbus Dispatch wrote it drew “hundreds.” A lot more people were at September 5th event. I know. I was on-stage at both.
So, you can understand how we may be a little skeptical of media reports at this point. Some news sources are saying over a million people in DC, and some are saying thousands. Clearly, not a good solution for our problem. See pictures below and look at news stories which had live traffic cams. It’s clear to see multitudes of people, definitely more than 25,000 as referenced in comments. From the ground, I have been told official police estimate is 1.2 million, but I am yet to confirm this with an official source.
See video for live traffic cam: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32811199/ns/politics-more_politics/
British source (I think exaggerated as well, but a good pic)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1213056/Up-million-march-US-Capitol-protest-Obamas-spending-tea-party-demonstration.html
I know you probably dont follow Instapundit, but just look at pictures:
http://pajamasmedia.com/instapundit/
4. The movement – This is actually quite difficult to put into just a few words. There are now over 60 groups in the Cinci-Dayton area meeting regularly. These numbers grow every week. I know because I help start them.
The Ohio Liberty Council has helped many of the conservative grass roots organizations come together for bigger and better things. Council organizations and membership continue to swell every week as well.
You can dismiss this as “15 minutes,” but those of us committed to making a difference don’t need our “15 minutes.” This isnt about recognition or power. Its simply about preserving our American Dream. I’ll be happy when I can stop staying up late every night, and meeting most evenings of the week. I’m sure my family will be too. But, until that day comes – I’m happy to watch this movement pick up steam every night of the week in homes, restaurants, churches and anywhere else groups can find a meeting place.
We can’t afford office space and formal meeting places, so we do what we must and we meet where we must. But, make no mistake – the media does not make a thing so, and we shall prove it!
It would be wrong of me to not offer both of you a formal invitation to our next meeting or simply a few drinks. I’ll pick up the tab. I’d really love to meet both of you, so if you are up for it – let me know! This is not a fake invitation. I’d really like to meet you, so if you are interested, let me know.
September 12th, 2009 at 5:56 pm
CNN & MSNBC are reporting 30-40,000 in DC. ABC is reporting the DC Fire Dept’s official estimate of 50-60,000. Even Fox News is describing the crowd as “tens of thousands”. It’s hard to confuse 60,000 with a million people. The only ‘news’ organizations that are reporting a million people are extremely reputable sources like Michelle Malkin and World News daily.
The Enquirer did not, in fact, retract it’s claim of 6000 in attendance at your rally. Here’s the last update to their article which includes a link to the Enquirer’s Politics Blog covering the dispute:
http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090905/NEWS01/909060368/1172/NEWS0108/Tea+party+protests+GOP++too
The blog entry does state that the Sheriff claimed 18,000 but also implicitly states that he is a biased TP sycophant and thus untrustworthy. The pictures clearly don’t back up your claims of 18,000 by the way.
So what’s going on here? Is each and every main stream media outlet conspiring against you TP’ers? Or is the truth that your party is a tiny minority thats winding down?
Let’s say that you had 18,000 at your rally. The ‘nationwide’ DC march today drew 70,000 (and that’s being generous), under four times what your VOA rally drew. That’s pretty sad (for you TP’ers anyway).
Here’s more truth for you: The tea parties and 9/12 groups are comprised of by nothing but the far right wing fringes of the republican party. Birthers, Deathers, Tenthers, people screaming Nazi, communist, socialist and conspiracy theorists of all stripes. These are people who cannot accept the results of the last election, plain and simple, and they are intent on bringing down a duly elected POTUS. Fortunately for the nation your numbers are laughably small and dwindling by the day. It’s 14:35 and counting so enjoy the tea while it lasts.
September 12th, 2009 at 5:58 pm
Sorry, that should have read “are extremely DISreputable sources like Michelle Malkin and World News daily”
September 12th, 2009 at 7:01 pm
Chuck – I’m sorry you have to call names, especially of people you don’t know. But, its a funny thing – your rhetoric decieves you. You say the Sheriff, with whom we have no special affiliation, is a “sycophant.”
By calling that, one must conclude his intention is to get closer to people with power. Yet, in the previous posts you said the 15 minutes is almost up and the movement is running out of steam.
You can’t have this argument both ways. If it is out steam, then the Sheriff has no particular motivation to get closer to the “power.” If it indeed has power, then your previous posts should be retracted.
Words are funny like that.
I also notice the real substance of statements hasnt been addressed. Instead we dive into the details and name calling. Doesnt really prove anything. I invite you to meet in person, and you insult thousands of people you havent met. Do you see how these things don’t add up?
Neither myself, nor the vast majority of people involved in this movement fit the descriptions you offered. I know its easier to lump people into categories than to believe that what is happening is possible. I can’t change your mind or curb your hatred. And, of course – only time will tell.
And, as much as I hate diving into these silly arguments, I just want people to have info.
You claim the enquirer didnt change anything, but you used the wrong link. Try this one: http://cincinnati.com/blogs/politics/2009/09/08/how-many-people-were-at-the-voa-tea-party/
In fact, it says – “The reporter who was there went with a more modest estimate, saying “more than 6,000.” That was based on his judgement and some interviews with local police, though the article didn’t make that clear.”
Read whole article for details.
As I stated from previous posts. I was on stage at both events – Columbus and VOA. VOA dwarfed Columbus. In fact, we planned the space to accomodate at least 30,000 people. It was almost 75% full at one point. I was the MC. I know. I watched it all day.
I will admit – people were sitting on chairs, blankets, etc – all of which take up more space. But having gone to multiple of these events, now – Dayton, Canton, Columbus, Fountain Square, etc. I can tell you with 100% confidence, and absolutely no need to exaggerate – its a lot more than 6000 people. Its probably double Columbus and definitely the largest Tea Party I have attended to date. Did you attend this one? Do you have first hand knowledge?
I know you’ll have an argument for that and the Washington info, which showed the traffic camera and reporters saying “tens of thousands.” And I know you wont believe first hand accounts we got from police on the ground.
None of that really matters. We can fight about details all day long. But, Something for which I havent seen a viable defense is – the actions and policies of both parties for many years now which have been leading our country to destruction. Obama and the current congress are simply the latest version of this nonsense.
What is your answer to the question of socialism taking over America?
In fact, a better way to phrase this would be – explain to me how – progressive tax code, increasing entitlement programs, government bailouts and private company purchase/intervention, or re-distribution of wealth in many forms – arent socialism?
We can talk details all day, but substantive debates revolve around the ability to do whats best for this nation.
I believe that a continued move in this direction simply serves a great leveling agenda. And that leveling of people is necessary in order to slowly walk them into a much purer form of socialism, not just the socialism light we already have.
I believe in President Obama’s school speech when he talked about personal responsibility and overcoming challenges. He talked about doing the right thing despite adversity, and how hard work pays off. It was one of the best conservative speeches I’ve ever seen delivered to children.
Just wish that kind of faith in the American people was reflected in his actions and policies. Instead, his policies bank on a nation of victims. A key to the roots of both communism and socialism is destroying the strength of the individual.
Can we talk about these things? Because what i want to know is – what I’m missing in his actions, the actions of congress and the historical events that took us from 1900 to present day.
And, yes – invite still stands. I’m open wednesday evening if you can swing it. you name the place and time.
September 12th, 2009 at 8:38 pm
Chris,
Perhaps you missed this tidbit in that link:
“Organizers and some other media used the figure 18,000, citing a figure given by Butler County Sheriff Rick Jones – an outspoken conservative and Tea Party supporter who spoke at the event.”
Here’s some additional background on the notoriously right wing sheriff Jones:
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/category/individuals/richard-k-jones
The Enquirer’s blog entry implicitly stated that Jones was biased and his opinion should be judged accordingly.
About DC, that 60,000 crowd estimate doesn’t come from any media source or pundit, it’s the unofficial estimate of the Washington DC Fire Department:
http://tinyurl.com/qusr26
Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and The Veteran’s Administration are all examples of so-called socialism that works. How is it that you think that ’socialism’ violate the Constitution? As to progressive taxation-it’s the system that every western nation employs. It means that the very wealthy considerably pay more in taxes than poor or middle class citizens, which is fair. Do you perhaps favour the feudal system, where the rich rule over the land, pay no taxes and we surfs have to pay all of the taxes? Is this because you or your family are wealthy and don’t like paying your taxes??
It’s always interesting to me that you and your fellow TP’ers did not say anything when the Bush administration passed a $1.75 Trillion tax cut which exclusively benefited the wealthiest 2% American citizens. That sum is nearly double the cost of the proposed health care reforms. You and your TP’ers also didn’t complain when the previous administration wasted $2 Trillion on a war in Iraq which was based upon the lies and deceit of the neoconservatives in that administration.
as to “lumping people into categories”, here are some images of your fellow TP’ers engaging in civil debate today. The pictures speak for themselves:
http://tinyurl.com/pygse3
http://tinyurl.com/lmkedt
http://tinyurl.com/qhulcd
http://tinyurl.com/pply5a
http://tinyurl.com/lm7zd6
http://tinyurl.com/lgo3g7
http://tinyurl.com/qexjn5
http://tinyurl.com/qscacv
Birthers. Deathers. Tenthers. Racists. crackpot conspiracy theorists. There’s your tea party, and what a bitter brew it is.
September 12th, 2009 at 8:40 pm
Chris,
Perhaps you missed this tidbit in that link:
“Organizers and some other media used the figure 18,000, citing a figure given by Butler County Sheriff Rick Jones – an outspoken conservative and Tea Party supporter who spoke at the event.”
Here’s some additional background on the notoriously right wing sheriff Jones:
(http:// plus)www.rightwingwatch.org/category/individuals/richard-k-jones
The Enquirer’s blog entry implicitly stated that Jones was biased and his opinion should be judged accordingly.
About DC, that 60,000 crowd estimate doesn’t come from any media source or pundit, it’s the unofficial estimate of the Washington DC Fire Department:
(http:// plus)tinyurl.com/qusr26
Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and The Veteran’s Administration are all examples of so-called socialism that works. How is it that you think that ’socialism’ violate the Constitution? As to progressive taxation-it’s the system that every western nation employs. It means that the very wealthy considerably pay more in taxes than poor or middle class citizens, which is fair. Do you perhaps favour the feudal system, where the rich rule over the land, pay no taxes and we surfs have to pay all of the taxes? Is this because you or your family are wealthy and don’t like paying your taxes??
It’s always interesting to me that you and your fellow TP’ers did not say anything when the Bush administration passed a $1.75 Trillion tax cut which exclusively benefited the wealthiest 2% American citizens. That sum is nearly double the cost of the proposed health care reforms. You and your TP’ers also didn’t complain when the previous administration wasted $2 Trillion on a war in Iraq which was based upon the lies and deceit of the neoconservatives in that administration.
as to “lumping people into categories”, here are some images of your fellow TP’ers engaging in civil debate today. The pictures speak for themselves:
(http:// plus)tinyurl.com/pygse3
(http:// plus)tinyurl.com/lmkedt
(http:// plus)tinyurl.com/qhulcd
(http:// plus)tinyurl.com/pply5a
(http:// plus)tinyurl.com/lm7zd6
(http:// plus)tinyurl.com/lgo3g7
(http:// plus)tinyurl.com/qexjn5
(http:// plus) tinyurl.com/qscacv
Birthers. Deathers. Tenthers. Racists. crackpot conspiracy theorists. There’s your tea party, and what a bitter brew it is.
September 12th, 2009 at 9:45 pm
Wow – still stuck on those details. All I can say is people, read the whole article. Look at the sources. View the pictures. Use your own judgement for both the VOA event and Washington. Chuck – I hope to see you at one of these things and become a first hand source rather than hunting for viewpoints which support your own. Tough life to live through other people’s eyes.
Also – Evil right wing extemist, Richard Jones trying to take a matter of illegal immigration into the hands of the law. That sure is crazy…even constitutional.
Not going to win over anyone on that one. My mother came to the US (legally) when she was 17, learned English and passed on the America Dream to her family. She’d condemn this illegal immigration nonsense before I would. Oh thats right, I was supposed to have that silver spoon in my mouth, spoiled rich white guy, trying to protect my millions. Sorry. Just a second generation kid who believes in hard work and the American dream. Worked for me so far, and I know it can work for everyone!
As for the actual content you addressed. Your post was so good it doesnt require much of a response. Let me simply quote: “Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and The Veteran’s Administration are all examples of so-called socialism that works.”
You basically outlined the most expensive, inefficient and bankrupt systems our country has to offer. They are catastrophic failures and in desperate need of reform. They account for a vast majority of the currently undeniable current and future debt. They are top line items on our federal budget, closely followed by payment on the national debt. You’ll see the military after them on the list.
mmmm….yes, they seem to be working great. Perfect example. Please continue using them in serious arguments.
Oh, and if the cost or inefficiency of these items doesnt work for you as a viable argument (because clearly fiscal responsibility doesnt)- they are programs most often untilized by people for basic subsistence. Sounds like the utopian world I want to live in. Government giving me just enough to stay alive!
Oh – and if you were really paying attention to the tea party movement, you would have heard us ripping Bush for everything and then recently crushing Republican congressmen Schmidt and Turner at the last Tea Party for abusive spending and failure to defend the constitution.
Also – attend an event and you would see more than the silly signs we actually discourage people from having. They are the minority, but people love to take those pictures. You would see the vast majority of principled signs that encourage fiscal responsibility, free markets and limited governments – the foundations of our country.
Foundations if abandoned, will result in its certain destruction.
I understand its easier for you to lump people into simple categories. I really do. Thats why I’m asking you to meet me – in person. You’ll see I don’t fall into those categories and most of us arent so easily cliched.
I still havent seen a defense to the principles of my argument, and when you argue with nothing more than emotion – you will always lose.
Does wednesday work for you?
September 12th, 2009 at 10:27 pm
Details-they’re a bitch, eh? And to quote Stephen Colbert: “Reality has a well known liberal bias.”
Medicare is inefficient? That’s news to me. Medicare operates with 2% in administrative costs, while the most efficient insurance company operates at 25% administrative costs, and the majority operate at closer to 1/3rd. Why don’t you tell all of those old folks that are showing up at your events-because you have managed to scare them lies about death panels-that you favour abolishing SS, Medicare and the VA? Let’s see how long they stick aroud with the TP. SS is easy to fix: lift the FICA wage limits and tax rates from their current limits so that the very wealthy have to pay their fair share.
September 12th, 2009 at 10:34 pm
ABC backs up it’s DC crowd size number-60-70,000 as verified by DC officials:
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/protest-crowd-size-estimate-falsely-attributed-abc-news/story?id=8558055
September 12th, 2009 at 10:41 pm
One last question that you refuse to answer Chris: If 18,000 were at the VOA rally, then why have only 4 times that amount turned out in DC?
September 13th, 2009 at 4:49 am
Quick house keeping note – Please don’t curse in the blog. Thanks.
As for the numbers – again, people – read the articles. See the pictures. Look at the youtubes. You be the judge.
As for Medicare. You make this far too easy. 3% administrative costs. Thats like saying the IRS has 1% administrative costs.
The whole thing is an administrative cost!
You clearly don’t understand CMS and Medicare/Medicaid. They set reimbursement rates, accepted codes and standards of care for those participating in re-imbursement. There is no true oversight function for the administration of care – hence the ridiculous fraud and abuse rampant in the system. See 40% increase in efficiency when private sector allowed to offer Medicare/Medicaid replacement products to population. (Medicare funded-privately managed products). Thats right, and increase in efficiency just by the private sector taking over.
So how is that possible you ask – case management, utilization review, etc. These are all terms foreign to Medicare. Some of that silly administrative costs you happily reference help manage abuses in care and unnecessary expenditures. Again simply doing more with less. That profit motive always helps find efficiencies.
Ironically, actual oversight is part of the proposed government option. Even those pushing government healthcare understand accountablity is important. So this isnt confused with unneccessary oversight of healthcare or people’s lives (like the proposed government option) – the best thing about the private system is – it still allows for physicians to work with their patients to make best decisions. And, if you don’t like your plan – trade it in. Get a new one. Pretty cool stuff. Options when using free market solutions. Funny how that always works out. The only people limiting that ability is the federal government, forcing regulation on the industry or completely inhibiting choice. They are slowly dismantling these replacement products despite cost savings to the tax payers.
The lack of choice in government run healthcare is half the problem. The government really strangles this.
And maybe the biggest issue – just like social security, its a giant Ponzi scheme. Taking from a pool of money in order to fund a program. One of the problems with socialism, and in this example Federal entitlement programs, the math doesnt work out. You must constantly have the incoming revenue to pay for it. See current and future obligations of our own programs which can’t be met – broken system. The only way to maintain such a system is to increase revenue (increase in tax burden).
But, the best part of that is…you guessed it – Only a certain percentage of people will be asked to bear the burden. Who? The same people who don’t utilize the system. They are asked to shoulder an increasing burden with absolutely nothing in return. Once again, socialism in action. This, my friend, is called a removal of liberty. Taking from those that have, and giving to those that don’t.
De-regulate, increase options, provide for tort reform – these are all market based solutions that arent talked about by the talking heads. Believe it or not, government intervention isnt the only way to help things. In fact, its the opposite. Government intervention in free markets rarely helps anything.
Last reference to your “wealthy pay their fair share.” Because of absurdly progressive taxation, the wealthy pay far more than their fair share. Basically the top 20% of tax payers fund the vast majority of government. So, the “wealthy” are getting crushed with those who benefit contributing almost nothing. They are paying so much more than their fair share. As this current administration continues to re-define who qualifies for entitlement programs, and requires fewer and fewer people to even pay taxes – we will soon have a scenario where a majority of voters are taking something from the system without a contributing anything to it. This isnt good for anyone.
By the way, please source comments like saying we are telling people lies about death panels. We havent been saying things like that. I can’t answer for the whole country, but I can answer for the Cincinnati Tea Party. We don’t use scare tactics.
We have publicly stated entitlement reform must be a significant focus. This isnt a secret. These programs must be reformed or they will bankrupt us all.
There is so much more to be said here, but in short version – its like this: increased dependency on the government is bad for our souls. Increase in tax burden to fund such a system is bad for our financial stability. Neither add up to protection of liberty.
Chuck – seriously, are you available Wednesday? I’d love to have this conversation in person.
September 13th, 2009 at 10:17 am
I fail to see how you can simultaneously “de-regulate”, “increase options”, and “provide for tort reform”.
Tort reform, by definition is a form of increased federal regulation on the legal industry and the elimination of individual options for redress. Using your argument above, this premise behind this is to reduce overhead costs due to what you see as “frivolous” liability lawsuits.
Using your own line of reasoning, this is just as much a restriction on “liberty” to serve “the common good” (which is to reduce costs to those who don’t feel they’ve been wronged by health care or health insurance, or those providers who think lawsuits against them are frivolous). In fact, this is a right granted to the people and outlined by the Seventh Amendment which is still part of the “Bill of Rights”.
Do you see the reason here why we see your arguments as inherently hypocritical? It is because the major cornerstone to most conservative plans is to ACTUALLY restrict individual rights outlined by the US constitution, for the purpose of “reducing costs” and eliminating penalties. In effect, it is increased regulation on the public for the purpose of restricting the public’s liberty in regulating an industry.
BTW, when you start complaining about the Tenth amendment, don’t forget that the powers are granted to the states OR “the people” (who’s voices are represented by Congress, whether your “guy” won last year or not).
Additionally, as any educated person should know, the State of Ohio already passed a tort reform bill back in 2005. If you are a member of the CTP, and an Ohio resident, then your insurance and health care organizations already benefit from the pleasure of “tort reform”. In spite of this “solution”, your health care costs are still skyrocketing. I still saw a 10% annual increase in premiums (2008-2009) through my employer until the company switched plans. There are already plenty of examples, and Republicans, Libertarians, and other conservatives have regularly refused to provide supporting data to support this as a viable cost-control measure.
On the subject of the Cincinnati Tea Party not using “scare tactics”: “You lie!”… Yes, some of you do use scare tactics. You need not go back that far in the past to find posts by Mike Wilson arguing that we’re entering a new Police State, Harald Ziegler using a poor recollection of history to draw parallels between the current administration and puppet dictatorships propped up by a Stalinist USSR, and Dale complaining about how the liberal secularists are going to take away his right to be Christian. These are all scare tactics. These have all been written on your blog.
As far as accusations about “Astroturfing” go… Again, you only need to reread the history of this blog and compare it against the Lou Dobbs and Glen Beck shows around the same time. You can see a striking similarity in theme. You can see Brian’s article about the “constitutionality of Czars” pop up just around the time that Glenn Beck decided to start attacking the position. Whether you like it or not, your blog is effectively promoting the talking points and agenda of “corporate right-wing media”.
There has been very little discussion on here related to the mistakes that were made in the past, with the exception of some attempts to exclusively blame the Clinton Administration for laws written by GOP lawmakers (such as John Boehner), such as financial deregulation.
You have made absolutely no attempt to address the actual state-funded actors who were paid as consultants to go on Fox News and actually mislead viewers into believing misleading claims leading us to war. Our democratic process prevailed in the end, but only after we invaded Iraq, and only after we killed hundreds of thousands in misguided battles. Eventually the practice was determined to be unethical by the DOJ, and it was banned.
While complaining about the “police state”, you’ve failed to recognize that we’ve moved further from the police state since Bush left office. The Bush administration executed the USA PATRIOT Act with a considerable amount of latitude early on. Do you remember Echelon program (aka SIGINT)? Do you remember GWB’s plea for all Americans to “remain diligent” and report suspicious civilian behavior to a federal 1-800 number? Do you remember Bush’s plea to “go out and shop” after 9/11 as a means of exercising patriotism?
Do you remember how the GOP-led congress attempted to take patent’s rights away from the helpless Terry Schiavo, because her parents did not want her legally-binding DNR order to be executed?
September 13th, 2009 at 11:43 am
DC crowd size: Interesting that you are all over official crowd size estimates when they work in your favour, but disavowal them when they don’t.
Medicare, VA Health Care: Works exceedingly well, patients are overwhelmingly happy with these programs and would revolt if they were taken away.
Tort reform: Litigation accounts for approximately 1.5% of health care costs. The tort reform that Texas enacted has done nothing to lower health care costs, in fact cost increases in Texas are out pacing the rest of the nation. This is another red herring that is designed to put yet more money into the insurance companies pockets.
Health Care reform: Deregulation? That did wonders for the banking sector, didn’t it? We already have a free market based system, and it’s is the disgrace of this nation. Health insurance costs are rising at outrageous rates. As to the ‘They set reimbursement rates, accepted codes’ the private insurance companies do the exact same thing, and they also put their profit margins ahead of their customers health too boot. The American people have been left to the tender mercies of the free market health care system for far too long, and it’s killing this nation both financially and literally.
It’s exceedingly clear whose interests the leaders of the TP are working to protect: The insurance industry, the health care industry and the very wealthy. The insurance industry and right wing groups including FreedomWatch, Americans for Prosperity, Century Strategies and various organizations controlled by the Koch Family Foundations are behind the TP’s and have been orchestrating their antics from the beginning. You can throw around terms like ‘liberty’ all you want to, but you aren’t working to protect hard working Americans-the 95% of the nation that busts their asses to pay for health care. You are working to protect the monied interests of a very small percentage of Americans.
One has to ask if Chris or a member of his family works for an insurance company, a health care industry or owns stock in one of these companies? I bet that Chris has a dog in this fight. How about it Chris, anything that you want to come clean about?
September 13th, 2009 at 11:46 am
Benco Dental Regional Manager
Chris Littleton
Benco Dental
9990 International Blvd.
Cincinnati, OH 45246
Game, set & match.
September 13th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
Pwned
September 13th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
Chuck, Do you have any other thoughts then “crowd” size? While your ramblings are indeed amusing, they have become rather redundant.
September 13th, 2009 at 5:32 pm
Sorry for delayed response. Took the kids to see the grandparents today. Good times!
I hope you had an enjoyable Sunday as well.
1. I’ll respond to Coleman and Chuck one last time, and thats all for me. Actually have some things to do for work before tomorrow, and I have a ridiculous work week ahead – lots of travel and evening meetings all week. You guys can have the last word, so enjoy it! Until next time…
- Appreciate the dialogue. Always helpful for people to see
- I am really serious about meeting you guys. One of the things the CTP leaders focus on is trying to build bridges with other people. Healthy debate is good thing, so I would really love to meet you guys and do our best to build bridges between ideologies. Wednesday of this week if possible.
You never know where the next breakthrough for our nation could come from. I’m happy to team up with anyone open to solid debate on relevant issues. Open invite. You know how to contact me.
2. Ok, I don’t even get the reference to my employer. Linked-In shows I work with a company that supplies stuff to dentists. And what? What does that have to do with anything? It has no context in this conversation. Medicare doesnt cover dentistry at all, and Medicaid has extremely small amounts of coverage with very few providers participating.
I hadnt thought of it, but you reminded me – dentistry would serve as a great model for how to keep government out of a system and still improve care. But, thats a whole other story.
How this is relevant to anything – I have no idea?
I assume this is an Alinsky style attempt to discredit a person not the message? Not sure. Still a little confused here. Knowledge that I work in the dental supplies industry doesnt have anything to do with this conversation.
3. Quick response to tort – try loser pays as a good inroad into to tort reform. The goal won’t be limiting liberty for anyone. It will be thoughtful suits that actually make sense, not an industry created for people like Jon Edwards who make fortunes from suspect facts, little evidence and out-of-court settlements just to make money. I’m talking serious efforts into curbing these silly suits. No state has even flirted with any kind of comprehensive reform. Pretty easy to do without sacrificing liberties.
By the way – I saw no increases over the last couple years in my healthcare costs. In fact, using some creative HSA’s and use of bargaining, I had an employer lower our healthcare costs about 3 years ago. You may want to talk to your HR department about that one. Someone isnt doing a good job if you are seeing a 10% increase. Thats well above average.
4. Scare tactics/Astroturf – Harald Zieger speaks from personal experience. He left East Germany to escape oppression. He grew up, was educated and worked in that system and knows what it looks like. You can say he is using “scare tactics,” but I consider the truths of communism scary.
As for Mike – one of the most level headed people I know, regularly shooting down silly rumors and scares. But, when our President asks us to turn in friends – it is scary. In fact, a whole other level of scariness.
Czars/Timelines/Media – There have been so many firsts for this administration, you can hardly blame media outlets for simple reporting. We arent allowed to get upset about something until we hear about it? Whats the alternative – getting upset before we know the problem? Thats just silly.
We were upset about this President and much of the Congress long before. But, the CTP didnt even form until March. We werent speaking out until then. None of us deny that.
We dont agree with the Patriot Act, we don’t like Bush and we all agree the really progressive agenda has been pushed through many, many Presidents. We arent defending too many people right now. Just focusing on the principles under which we can win. Thats the whole idea – shifting the conversation another direction.
De-regulation – this is really to big too get into in one post. Government intervention started every single problem we see in the banking industry right now. Each President from Carter forward holds serious blame for this (yes, Reagan too). Congress is no less guilty. Defending the ability to have Fannie/Freddie as a government loophole – come on. Everyone knows that was a mess. And of course there are the fundamentals of monetary supply and federal reserve system that stink of helping a boom/bust cycle continue.
There is so much blame to go around in the perversion that is government intervention – its hard to talk about it.
Subsidies (for all companies and industries), Department of Education, Department of Energy, Department of Health and Human Services, etc – really this list of failures of government is so long, I can’t even begin to touch it. If they touch it – it gets worse. Thats the one thing we know for sure.
Interests of the Cincinnati Tea Party – also a limited amount of space here. It is quite simply this. We believe Thomas Paine when he said about government “…the more simple any thing is, the less liable it is to be disordered, and the easier repaired when disordered…”
I could care less about protecting any industry at all. In fact, I favor no special protection or subsidy for any company or industry.
What I do care about is protecting my ability to pursue the American Dream and leaving that ability for my children. I’m not wealthy, but I would love to be some day. I just want the ability to live my life without people involuntarily taking from me at every turn.
And thats what this country is moving towards. Thats why we are so scared. I dont want to take anything from anyone. Its what they want to take from me. Thats what I seek to stop.
To reference Paul Rahe’s book, we are naturally slipping into the “soft despotism, democracy’s drift.” Our own prosperity has created such a sense of entitlement, we have forgotten what got us to this prosperity. It wasnt Socialism.
It was the protection of our inborn rights to life, liberty and the pusuit of happiness. These rights best play out in our culture when we adhere to principles of limited government, fiscal responsibility and free markets.
I’d recommend reading the Federalist Papers to see these ideas take shape for the country. Common Sense builds on these ideas, as does the actual Declaration of Independence. They come to fruition in an actual form of government built to protect those rights in our Constitution.
Don’t read these documents independent of each other, but rather as a continuation of thought. It also doesnt hurt to read Tocqueville, Montesquieu, Rousseau or any early writings on the ideas of natural rights and governmental systems which could support them. Tocqueville is particularly useful in reflecting back on the possibilities of success in America based on these principles.
A guy named Dennis Prager always says – “I prefer clarity to agreement.” We may not be able to agree or convince each other, but it is clear we have different views on what kind of path our Republic should venture.
Thats not a bad thing. And thats why for one last time, I extend the invitation to meet both you. You know how to reach me.
Good luck on last words!
September 14th, 2009 at 7:16 am
Chuck, Chris has offered to meet with you in person many times, but instead you revert to namecalling and bashing? Unlike what you wish to believe, the TP’ers are nothing of the words that you use to describe us. What we are is a part of the population who for many years stayed silent, living our lives,and dealing with what was going on in DC.
THat has changed. Now we are not silent anymore, we are not going away, and this is a force that is growing and gaining in strength. Nobody pays us to go there, or to go to DC, or pay our way to demonstrate in a PEACEFULL manner.
Chuck, I do ask you to quit drinking the Kool Aid, and to remove your head from the sand. I’m asking myself why you cannot take up Chris on his offer to meet and having a personal discussion.
September 14th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
“Unlike what you wish to believe, the TP’ers are nothing of the words that you use to describe us”
wrong Billo. They’re all that and more:
http://tpmtv.talkingpointsmemo.com/?id=3418440&ref=fpblg
September 14th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
And the head stays stuck in the sand…………
September 14th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
Bill’s head is stuck in his T-hole.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:20 pm
Shorter Bill: Unless you agree with us tea partiers your head is stuck in the sand.
Edited to remove the slur…
September 15th, 2009 at 6:41 am
Dear Mike:
A great big THANK YOU. Thank you to all who went and stood for hours. Thank you to those of us Left Behind but Watched and cheered even thoug we couldn’t see how large it was.
Thank you, thank you. We are and will continue to be heard. We Are the People and the only people who make a difference.
September 15th, 2009 at 8:48 am
National Tea Party leader digs a deep whole for himself last night:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fymdNxn82M&feature=player_embedded
September 16th, 2009 at 5:55 am
At the rally at around 11:00 am it was announced that the Washington D.C. police estimated 1.5 million people were there, however, people were still streaming in until around 1:00 or 2:00 pm. At around 5:30 pm one of the local news stations in Washington D.C. announced that there were an estimated 2.1 million people at the rally.
I was there, comparing it to all of the other rallies there were 2 million people. I talked to people Sunday who said there were people standing out by the WW2 monument.
It would be nice to have a picture taken from the top of the Washington Monument around 1:00pm.
Where is all of the satellite imagery? Let’s take a guess. Why we won’t see this on google maps?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1213056/Up-million-march-US-Capitol-protest-Obamas-spending-tea-party-demonstration.html
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=109628
September 16th, 2009 at 10:24 am
Ann, The DC police never gave any such size estimate. In fact, the only official crowd size estimate came from the DC Fire Department, who put the rally size at 60-70,000. While you are entitled to your own set of opinions Ann, you are not entitled to your own set of facts.