A Question of Representation
Organizing for America hosted a march in support of healthcare reform and the public option today (Oct 18th) at Fountain Square in Cincinnati. Tea Party supporters attended as well to offer an alternative to people in the square, passing out literature about healthcare reform from our perspective.
To provide some additional context for the event: Organizing for America had 45 people in attendance and the Tea Party had about 15. This was a march for their group, and an educational opportunity for us (though admittedly a few people brought signs from our group). Our people were assigned to corners passing out literature, and theirs were gathering for a march showing signs and flags in support of the public option.
We respect their first amendment right to voice their opinion, and are happy to see them taking part in a necessary dialogue for the American people.
But, a few curious things took place at this event which made me think – who represents who?
1. One of the OFA supporters brought a young girl over to us, and said “You see. This is what hate looks like.” Moments later she began yelling at us, and said we should just wait on the side “until your people get out of church.”
2. Two individuals held a huge banner which read, “Healthcare for All. People not Profit. www.socialistworker.org”
3. Most other attendees held signs saying things like public option now, or everyone deserves healthcare. Most were very friendly and stated their point clearly.
Also important to the conversation about representation is a very level headed guy named, Justin, who was filming the event and interviewing people. Justin said he wasn’t with Organizing for America, and was friendly, well-spoken and engaging. We had a fairly lengthy conversation (most of which he filmed) about tons of subjects.
In this conversation, there was no real depth because he kept changing subjects. Or, what I like to call the shotgun approach to dialogue I experience every time I speak with someone from the left. Meaning – no room for content, just take quick shots all over the place to cover a lot of area, making sure the subject is changed as soon discussion becomes substantive.
But, despite this somewhat sporadic conversation, he seemed like a reasonable person.
Part of our conversation addressed what the American people wanted, or what view is more representative of Americans. Good question.
On one hand we have the very radical element to the left. Hate-filled and yelling names and innuendos. This was the same element that chose to display the socialstworker.org banner.
We also have the very level headed people like Justin, stating their points clearly.
And, our last representatives of the day were the Tea Party supporters advocating free market solutions to healthcare reform. Mix of educational materials and signs about socialism and Marxism related to the public option in healthcare.
One other very curious thing to me was the giant socialist banner that lead their group in the march. Seriously, most followed behind the giant yellow banner, proudly displayed. It was pretty strange.
So – who represents who?
I made the point that OFA had weeks to organize this pro-public option march and still mustered only 45 people. If the Cincinnati Tea Party took weeks to organize a march, I can assure you – thousands would have attended. We have proved this time and time again.
Is that significant? Is that indicative of the levels of respective support?
Does it mean OFA isn’t well organized or doesn’t have as many people supporting them as I thought?
Does the fact that the socialist signs lead the group indicate something about the organization?
These are legitimate questions. You be the judge.
It does indicate one thing for sure – rather than forcefully and suspiciously pushing through a bill through Congress for which there is no majority support of any kind – we need to continue a healthy debate on the subject, not use shady backroom deals and loopholes to get something through the legislative process which deserves more transparency than perhaps any other debate taking place in the nation.
I’d also like to offer some bi-ideological support (yes, I know that’s not a word) for President Obama’s campaign promise of 1 week of public viewing for every bill coming out of Congress. I will definitely credit President Obama with that great idea which we should all support.
October 19th, 2009 at 12:26 am
Chris, I just saw you on television. Good job!
By the way, if you held a sign saying “Obamacare = Socialism”, you would be accused of using hyperbolic scare tactics. I am quite pleased that the socialists are being more open. It will make are job much easier. You might be able to get the bi-ideological support for public review. The folks over at socialistworker.org criticize President Obama leaning too far to the right. (Not a typo, they actually believe he is not “left leaning” enough.
-From the Ravings of the Psychomancer
October 19th, 2009 at 9:51 am
The Socialist Worker media group was there promoting their own agenda and issues, not necessarily the president’s. Since I’ve been lectured on the difference between the CTP and the 9/12 Project, I think it’s fair to educate on the difference between Organizing For America and Socialist Worker (a left-leaning publication).
Other than that, I think this blog entry illustrates a lot of the parallels in my perception and assumptions when attending events that got attended by CTP.
Organizing for America is no more promoting “socialism” by holding an event that Socialist Worker decides to come to than the Cincinnati Tea Party is promoting “racism” by holding events that drew groups with signs exclaiming “gimmee yo change” and so forth.
Go read Socialist Worker and find out just what “leftist” proposals and overhauls aren’t being done. Perhaps it will put into perspective the current administration, and you can back off your cries of “socialist!”. Calling Obama and congressional dems socialists is probably pretty insulting to real socialists out there. It also doesn’t make you look very educated.
Good post Chris, this is probably one of the best items on this blog since its inception.
October 19th, 2009 at 7:25 pm
It is a good post. Eccept for the arrogance and exxagerating. “I made the point that OFA had weeks to organize this pro-public option march and still mustered only 45 people. If the Cincinnati Tea Party took weeks to organize a march, I can assure you – thousands would have attended. We have proved this time and time again”
Your labor Day even was promoted for MONTHS in advance, was an all day activity and cross invited groups from Indianna and Kentucky but you don’;t ever seem to mention that.
Coleman is right though. Equating the Socialist with the left is the equvilant of the racist in the CTP events but not nearly as dangerous.
It’s unfortuante that you push buttons that people literally hate you. But thats what happens when you try to block something as important as health care. You may think you are being fiscal. (Although you need to admit the CTP while its says its against a range of so many other things both Democratic and Republican it is beginning to seem like a one trick pony ONLY attacking Democrats and Health Care Reform and not going after other wasteful Goverment Spending like the BILLIONS spent on the war, or the tax break on the top 2 percent, and Republican who LOVE PORK. Examples:
GOP Leader Mitch McConnel:
$1.6 million for a forage animal production
research laboratory in Lexington
$1.088 million for an animal waste management
research lab in Bowling Green
And thats just onbe there are many more. No complaints about that kind of pork in our budget. Just complaining that people who can’t afford it might get health care.
MMaybe people would hate you less if you spread the “fiscal responsibilty” around
October 19th, 2009 at 10:54 pm
Believe or not, I just call it as I see it. If you look at my posts, I’m never the one throwing around hate speech and name calling. That stuff doesnt accomplish anything.
Admittedly, there are extremes on both sides.
Real work is done with the level heads on both sides. Thats why you hear me ask all the time for someone to meet with me in person. This isnt just a broken record for me. I’m really serious.
I realize the only way to get past this stuff is to sit down with people, not just throw crap against the wall and see what sticks.
Will, I do want address your comment about pushing buttons that literally make people hate us.
Hate is a choice, and I rarely choose it. An opposing view of any kind shouldnt be greeted with hate. I just dont understand that. Just because we don’t agree doesnt make you my enemy.
It means, I’ll try to convince you. But hate?? Doubtful.
You write to say that an opposing view on healthcare is justifiable ground for hatred. I just don’t get that.
You also mention above that we only go after Democrats. Thats just not true.
At the VOA rally townhall section, we crushed Congressman Mike Turner and Jean Schimdt with questions related to constitutional voting and ear marking. Boehner got the same tough questions, but didnt make for videos as good as these. The crowd was booing them, and chanting against them. So bad that, I thought people were going to rush the stage.
Watch these whole videos, and you will see we are no supporters of Republicans without principles.
Schmidt: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pH5Ypd3kTgQ&feature=related
Turner: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k57BktwaCWY
The stuff you list above is absolutely unforgivable.
We write all the time that the largest expansion to Medicare and entitlements came under Bush. We condemn him too. He allowed for the patriot act, and huge increases in foreign aid. Expansion of government through no child left behind, and the list goes on.
Bush and the Republican controlled congress is the biggest reason I’m here today. I was fuming when the first Bush stimulus went through, then TARP. It was re-distrubution of wealth then and showing special favor to wall street friends “too big to fail.”
Bunch of garbage. All of it.
This isnt about parties. It never has been.
Its about protecting our collective rights to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. Its always been that simple.
We believe: limited government, fiscal responsibility and free markets are the keys to those rights, so anyone who tears those down is in the wrong.
I’m opposed to anyone attacking those things. I’m not a Republican, and have never been one.
A crook is a crook – regardless of party. You’ll get no defense from me.
October 19th, 2009 at 10:56 pm
By the way, my comment about unforgivable is referencing the earmarks and pork. Just re-read, and I wanted to make sure you knew I wasnt adressing you in that part.
October 20th, 2009 at 11:45 pm
As one of the banner-waving socialists, I thought I’d put in my side. First of all, Coleman is right in saying that Organizing for America and Socialist Worker (the newspaper of the International Socialist Organization) are not related. They called the event (and failed to promote it very well), and we came to support our position.
What is our position?
Well lumping us in the the “hate-filled”, “yelling” folks isn’t necessary. It’s hard to have a debate like you had with Justin from across a garden plot. When we did yell, it was in response to a bigot across the way (perhaps the writer of this blog). He was very ageist, as he treated us like adolescents from the start, so we really didn’t have a chance to air our viewpoint to begin with. He actually said to one of us, dismissively, “I’m sure your parents are very proud of you!” Disgusting.
Apparently we don’t know what it’s like to “create anything” like a business. Since we don’t employ anybody, apparently our opinions are worthless. Moreover he was sexist, as he stated that “it takes balls” to start a business. Very nice.
At any rate, our position – stated clearly on the banner, “People – Not Profit” – is that capitalism can only take society so far. Capitalists won’t do things that need done if there’s not a profit to be made (even if it means that tens of thousands of people will die), so if we want to develop further, we have to start planning our economy. That doesn’t mean profit will disappear altogether, rather that we will balance the books on a national scale, not at an enterprise level. Simply put, a particular business that is socially necessary but not profitable would be subsidized by those that are.
That is hardly the definition of socialism though – it’s more of an expression rather than the definition. Any dictator can have a state-run economy, but it’s not socialist if it’s not run democratically.
Similarly government health care is a demand of socialists – not socialism itself. Hence Obama and Co. are hardly leftists.
October 21st, 2009 at 10:16 am
Chris How did I miss the event on Sunday?!?I would have been there in a heart beat!I can assure those on the left that many are being awaken to the whole radical agenda being shoved down our throats!! I have a novel ideal!! Why don’t we all go to a Fairtax and allow each person to spend their own $ as they see fit!! These left wing elitist groups would start dropping like flys!! Why do they not want this? Because they want to control!! Its not about helping people who do not have health care! If so, WHY have they not used the stimulous first and for most for those among us who are TRULY in need?? As for the global warming hoax its all about shifting the wealth from America to other nations. Make no mistake my friends on the left and “Mr. President” we have sat idly by and allowed you to engage us in this global economy socialist agend!! WE ARE AWAKE! WE WILL NOT GROW WEARY! WE WILL NOT USE VIOLENCE!!! WE HAVE THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH WILL SET US FREE!! WE WILL NOT BE STOPPED!! WE ARE AMERICANS AND IT IS IN OUR BLOOD!!
October 21st, 2009 at 2:45 pm
My name is Nathan Lane, and I was the event organizer of the March 4 Healthcare reform on Sunday the 18th. First off, our head count was 70-75 people. I can give you first names of almost 50 people alone. We had Planned Parenthood, members of the AFL-CIO, OFA, the Democratic Party, the Green Party, and yes the Socialists there. We also had 3 Cincinnati City Council members and candidates speak at the event. I have many photos available to view if you wish to count the heads yourselves. Secondly, I organized the event, not OFA, or the Socialists. OFA did virtually nothing to help, they only provided a website for me to use to list the event, and brought some flyers down. It was a public event and as such, anyone who supported healthcare access for all, a strong public option, or a single payer system could attend and voice their opinion. I arranged the whole thing, from puling the permit, printing the flyers, networking with like minded groups, and posting all of the event listings. Did it all on less than $50. It was a true grass roots event with true Americans, representing some very divergent viewpoints. Some in favor of a govt. takeover, but most in favor of some fair pricing and access to insurance. It took me 4 weeks to organize the march, and I had NO EXPERIENCE. Also, after the first quarter block, I WAS IN THE LEAD of the march, with a US flag, my daughter holding the other side next to me. Not the Socialists. They are too far to the left for me on most issues, but they do support universal access to healthcare, which I support, and as such was happy to have them there to voice THEIR opinions. I respect the views of the TEA party, the Republicans and the Libertarians, having once followed both myself. I’m a moderate in favor of a strong public option. Not single payer, not socialism. Many on the far left attack ME for supporting a public option. This is more a battle against the insurance industry than anything else. They STILL have one of the only Anti-Trust expemptions in America, and that is the root of the problem. They have a monopoly and collusion is rampent. A public insurance option to provide basic care (not elective) would go a long way towards reintroducing true competition. 35 states have one provider DOMINATING their respective market. It’s not a true free market system. Which I support. There is not true copetition. That is what I want to change more than anything else. On to politics… Politicaly, the GOP is so rigid in it’s idealogy now that all divergent viewpoints have left the party. That is the current problem with the far right. No compromise. America is far too diverse for this approach and until you realize that your numbers will shrink. Cincinnati may be a bastion of conservatism, but America is not. Obama took 68% of the electoral vote. Bush took 50.3% of the electoral vote in 2000. Face it, America is leaning more left. That is also the Democrats problem with getting things passed now, too many viewpoints within one party. It is harder to gain consensus when so many people from so many backgrounds are in one party. Lastly, the issue of name calling is rather funny coming from your group. I’ve had discussions with many members of your group, and been called every name in the book, Communist, Socialist, Big government Democrat, lazy, unpatriotic. None apply. I do not condone name calling, as it diverts us from true discussion of the issues, and resolves nothing. I made a point of asking my group to avoid name calling, but everyone is free to voice their opinion how they see fit. If you would like to continue this conversation I’m happy to do so. I would gladly engage any of your members in a DISCUSSION of the issues, any day. Just contact me on Facebook, Myspace, or by email. I know you all love this country as much as I do. Let’s drop the name calling and address the issues. Thanks and take care all.
Nathan Lane
October 21st, 2009 at 3:52 pm
Nathan – glad to see a post and the open discourse.
You should be commended for the organizing and planning of such a thing. I know it is a lot of work, and I think it is healthy for all Americans to be involved in this debate.
I’ll quickly address a few things:
1. Count – we did an exact head count not estimate. Thats why I said 45 not 50. That was during the march, so if more people came later then my statement is open for ammendment. That was the exact count in the march.
2. You are right the big banner was not the very first thing. I remember you being the lead person I shouldnt have written it that way. I did write in next sentence “most” followed behind. I should have written it was toward the front, which is true. We have pictures. Happy to send. And always happy to correct myself.
3. Happy to hear you are not in favor of single payor. One of our fears, of course, is government option easily sliding into single payor, so we don’t want to go down that road.
4. We want the current system broken up as well, and if you are a free market guy, like you write – why not support deregulation across state lines allowing options for consumers and group buying options? This allows for the exact solution you are suggesting, competition, without government involvement or tax payer burden.
5. I agree the GOP has a ton of problems, thats why I’m not a Republican, and don’t plan to become one. We are not Pro-GOP. See my comments in these posts with the youtube videos above. We are, however, advocates for free market solutions and tipping the scales to artificially manipulate the market with a government option is problematic at best, especially when talking penalties, mandated coverage, care rationing, long term costs, and the list goes on and on.
6. You can’t site the electoral college as the only means to justify the direction of the country. Especially when one of the problems is that you can win the electoral college and lose the popular vote – remember Bush! Lots of factors here and voting isnt the only one. I’d propose that the waves of momentum that continue into our movement – state and nationwide (not just Cincinnati) are a good indicator that an alternative is wanted.
7. We agree on name calling. Its silly for everyone. If our people do it – its wrong. Plain and simple.
9. Lastly – and its a big hope here…available to sit down anytime over the next few weeks for drinks to talk about this stuff? We can work out details through e-mail privately. Yes?
October 21st, 2009 at 4:58 pm
We did pick up people on the way and had some late arrivals who came just as we gathered on the corner of 5th and Vine across from the square. One of our speakers and her group arrived at the last second… as we were ready to leave on the march. Our head count was 70+ at the end of the march at the corner of 6th and Vine. The Socialists caught me off guard, as I had not invited them directly. They merely saw the event and came to join us. But they do support universal access and as such could not ask them to leave. We agree on this issue, even if we disagree on how to acheive it. I personally do not think a single payer or socialist system is best for America. I look at this as no different than choosing to mail a letter via USPS through the govt, at a not-for profit rate, or through UPS or FedEx for faster and higher quality service at a profit. Or choosing the private toll road or govt. road. A blend of market forces and govt. regulation tends to deliver the best results I feel. Even in Canada, where the govt. provides most services, you are still free to obtain private insurance, and go to get higher quality care from a private provider. Cosmetic and elective surgery falls into that area also. That should not be covered by the taxpayer. Currently what I favor, and many on the left favor is the USPS’s version of healthcare. Not the greatest thing in the world mind you, but if you are one of the 30-45 MILLION with no coverage, it’s still a nice idea to have that option. I DO support the idea of being able to buy insurance across state lines. The insurance companies do NOT. What a strong public option would do is FORCE competition to occur. Insurance companies profit anywhere from 10%-15% off each dollar we pay into their plans. In my opinion, that is immoral. Most serious medical conditions which affect quality of life are genetic. Or enviromental. In other words, you are born into those circumstances. You can choose a nice new car, or old used one. You can choose a nice new big house, or old small used one. You can even eat healthy cheaply if you are educated about how to do so. Or you can eat out nice all the time. You can go to the thrift store for your clothing, or to a dept. store. You can’t choose if you are born with cancer. Or choose if you are at high risk of cancer. Or if you are born with a natural tendency to high blood pressure or heart disease. Some of your health is preventable. But for many, just getting a doctors advice on HOW to live a health life is not an option. If you have no insurance, you will avoid the doctor until you are already sick. So preventative care doesn’t occur. In my view we increase the safety and security of our nation by enabling our citizens to obtain that level of care without undue financial burden or hardship. Sans insurance, a visit to the doctor is well over $100 for a 15 min visit. Any citizen making 200-300 a week with kids will never visit a doctor unless they absolutely have to. Which usually means they wait until they have to go to the emergency room. And then all of us who DO have insurance pay the bill anyway in our premiums. It’s a national security issue as much as our army, marines, navy and air force are. And rather than look at the prospect of rationing, think of the potential job creation that could occur with expanded coverage? How many more general practioners would we need, how many more nurses? We also need to make medical school FREE in this county as many other nations do. If doctors didn’t have insane debt levels to look forward to, they wouldn’t need as high of levels of pay upon graduation, and many more wouldn’t specialize into areas that don’t serve the general health of the population, just to find a niche that pays off all their debt. Our health as a nation is critical to our success as a nation. We need to look ourselves in the mirror and decide what our priorties are. I agree on the electoral collage not being accurate. And Bush is a good example. Also remember, the idealogical group out of power usually does pick up people, and momentum precisely because they are out of power. Look at the Democrats from 2005-2007… After 2004 did you have any clue they would resurge in 2006 and 2008 like they did? But the numbers in congress and in local govt. clearly indicate that the nation is drifting back to more moderate policies. Yes I said “moderate” as the GOP is FAR right now. So a liberal to you may truly be a moderate. I used to identify as a moderate Republican up until the mid 90’s. Many, many people have done the same thing. That’s a movement the GOP should pay more attention to if they hope to ever gain any political traction again. Unless the Dems screw up bad and put themselves out of office, they have the potential to run the show for the next decade or so. And yes, the name calling is pointless. I’m glad we can agree on that. Yelling at or over each other is only a recipe for more division, and mis-understanding. And lastly, sure… hit me up on Facebook or at my email. We’ll talk. Take care!
October 22nd, 2009 at 12:04 am
First, let me commend Nathan for be willing to meet in person and have a normal conversation about this stuff.
I have been asking this for a long time on this blog and other places, and he is the first to say yes. No matter what any of us think, we will accomplish nothing but a big mess if we can’t engage in civil discourse and reasonable debate.
I have sent him an e-mail and we will get this scheduled. I hope to do the same with a number of people with whom I disagree on this blog and a lot of other places.
You do realize that we will do, in Cincinnati, with two regularly people, what our elected officials are incapable of doing in Washington.
We are going to act like mature adults.
Nathan – thank you!
In trying to have clarity before we even seek agreement…
Lets provide some context and framework for this debate. I want to keep it short and sweet, so we don’t get into too many talking points in a single post without defining an actual starting point.
So, before we talk about the actual implementation of a government option, let me address a philosophical problem where I think our respective sides start to split.
We lean more to the concept that healthcare is not a right, it is a good or service. It is produced by others and sellable as a commodity therefore, not a right.
We believe rights are things which can’t be bought or sold. We are born with rights. A government can’t control rights, no matter what a law says because a law didnt create the right in the first place, therefore it can’t take it away.
Do you believe healthcare to be a right?
If yes, why? And, what else do you consider a right?
If no, why not?
October 22nd, 2009 at 7:04 am
wife saw your representatives out off of 275 on winton exit yesterday. i wanted to say good job and glad there are others in the area who are fighting for liberty and freedom in ohio. though our jobs may be different our cause is still the same… limited government control. be careful out there my friends and fellow patriots… the world is going to get alot worse before it gets better. if you wish to contact me the website is http://www.myspace.com/undeadmatthew. i would love to have one of your banners on my sight. god bless you and god bless america!
October 22nd, 2009 at 8:01 am
Chris I’d be happy yo meet with you but I do have serious issues with what you attack and how you attack it.
Health Care reform and coverage for all is needed in this country. Over 1000 people die everyday because they do not have Health Care Coverage. To choose that as your position that you want to be fiscally responsible on when theres a War in Afganistan that has cost us over a trillion dollars. Never a mention of War Costs. Just heaalthcare.
I READ the emails that Mike sent out. Like the last one. In which I quote.
“A bill of this proposed size, influence and magnitude violates all of our core values of: Fiscal Responsibility, Limited Government and Free Markets. It is a definite march toward more aggressive wealth re-distribution and a terrible blow to personal Liberty.”
It is NOT a definate march towards agressive wealth re-distribution. And its quite a conjecture and stretch to say that without any proof.
October 22nd, 2009 at 8:06 am
Oh and by the way:
“We lean more to the concept that healthcare is not a right, it is a good or service. It is produced by others and sellable as a commodity therefore, not a right.”
**Before the Reagan years there were such things as public hospitals, goverment finded clinic’s for the poor. and health services. It was always a right before The Reagan Administration made it a “business”
We believe rights are things which can’t be bought or sold. We are born with rights. A government can’t control rights, no matter what a law says because a law didnt create the right in the first place, therefore it can’t take it away.”
Well then. being a Gay American I expect the CTP to be at the forefront of Gay Civil Rights. Please make an anoouncement that you call on the Goverment to Repeal DADT, Repeal DOMA, enact EDNA, and iclude the LGBT Community in The Civil Rights Act. If what you say is true about “government can’t control rights, no matter what a law says because a law didnt create the right in the first place” I can;t wait to see that in your next mass mailer.
October 22nd, 2009 at 10:23 am
Will – responses
1. I’m not opposed to finding cuts in the military and foreign aid. Fiscal responsibility doesnt stop when we cross into different departments of the government. No arguments from me.
I would mention to you that in our federal budget, the military is behind social security, medicare, medicaid and payment on the national debt for top items. So, while I agree cutting should occur, the trillion dollars you mention (wrong figure reference to Afghanistan – more like the cost of a multi-year, multi-country war) are nothing compared to entitlement and debt spending. TARP and the “stimulus” package alone cost as much as the war spending from 2001-to present, hence the record budget deficit for 2008 and 2009. Thats right – I’m blaming Bush and Obama equally for this recent lunacy…though it started long before either of them.
We think all of the above should be addressed, and much more.
2. Quick defense for Mike. I wrote that newsletter, so pick on me this time. Not him. But…fundamentally, taxation is re-distribution of wealth. The clear argument is that the original Constitution provides a power to tax for some very specific things. And, any sane person is going to acknowledge the necessity of taxes for very specific resources, shared infrastructure, common defense, etc. I will submit that I don’t consider these things “rights” either, but acknowledge as acceptable because a functioning nation can’t exist without them.
The founders tried that under the articles of confederation, and it didnt work. So the Constitution was drafted with a basic principle in mind – government designed, if I could quote Thomas Paine for a moment, government with the least expense and greatest benefit. Because…the more simple any thing is, the less liable it is to be disordered, and the easier repaired when disordered.
Government is basically a necessary evil and the Constitution was designed to be a balance preserving liberty while providing for a functional society. We accept a sacrifice of Liverty, so we don’t live in anarchy. So, government’s primary function is to preserve freedom for citizens. Freedom to do…whatever…fill in the blank…the Pursuit of Happiness – not to provide for goods and services.
3. Let me get something on the table. Reagan is not God. He had plenty of things he did well. He was a fan of free markets and was the single biggest contributing factor to current US prosperity, but he is not perfect. You are also mistaken in saying he created this “business.”
This business was in large part created by an act of…you guessed it – the federal government. They decided that during world war 2, a demand for workers would cause a substantial increase in wages, so they placed artificial measures in place by the “National War Labor Board” to freeze wages. It turned into a mess. As a compromise with the employers, they allowed for the non-taxable benefits systems, hence – employer based health insurance is born.
Boom – they had inadvertently created a new industry and future problems. So, health insurance was available before, but not really employer based. And, the basic model was closer to what we think of as catastrophic coverage. Closer to modern car or homeowners insurance.
The idea that health insurance should cover every single visit, check up and procedure was not even around until the government encouraged the market (through increased access) to provide for it.
Prior to this, health insurance was not viewed as a necessary part of daily life, and definitely not a right. This is a very modern construct. Before, cost controls took care of themselves, and only big procedures and hospitalizations were considered necessary for insurance coverage.
The government created a perpetual problem by doing something very well intended.
So, Reagan did not make it a business. That ball was rolling long before him.
By the way, I’m skirting Roosevelt’s contributions to larger entitlements and Johnson’s contributions through the Great Society. Both of which fundamentally changed government influence in these fields as well.
4. Lastly, gay rights. As a conservative, I don’t care about “gay” Americans or “African” Americans or “Hispanic” Americans (of which I would be considered a part – first generation born in US from moms family – yeah!!). These are things that put us into nice little cliches and groups. Again, kind of silly. Its like the high school lunch room of America. Childish then, and childish now.
I will make this announcement. Moral legislation designed to either harm or help any class of people is absurd. And, its even worse when its done at the federal level. Its definitely not their business what I do in my own home or anyone elses.
Freedom to choose!! Thats the key.
All we are looking for is the freedom to choose.
A big fear of government option is cost, and the slippery slope that leads to single payor. Just look at every other government program in history which never shrunk – only expanded. This is the track record. Not a question of, if – just, when.
Given that reality, redistribution of wealth is absolutely necessary in order for this model to continue. And, with an expanding population – you are building the biggest Ponzi scheme in the world. Europe has learned this lesson, so they are pearing down their healthcare system or, out of necessity, making really tough choices in what care can be covered. All at taxpayers expense. So once again, losing the freedom to choose.
Its just the nature of such a system. its not self-supporting. It wants to kill itself. And, once started – it can never be stopped until it does actually kill itself. See history of Communism.
I’m not suggesting Communism is being proposed here. I’m just saying, its the logical conclusion of such a model. If this, why not that? If that, why not this? And so on, and so forth. No end in site once you take the plunge.
October 22nd, 2009 at 10:28 am
Oh yes, almost forgot…
Will – thanks for the invite to sit down with you as well.
Maybe when Nathan and I sit down, Mike can join us and we’ll all chat for a while.
Hopefully you guys are up for that. I’ll send an email to you as well.
Thanks for the openess!
October 22nd, 2009 at 11:14 am
Chris the one flaw in your argument is “A big fear of government option is cost, and the slippery slope that leads to single payor” Its YOUR fear and it doesn;t mean that it will happen. And actually there isn’t a case of that happening anywhere in the world. To make statements like that is such a far reach and just such leap in logic and to promote that as fact is akin to fearmongering.
October 22nd, 2009 at 2:17 pm
“After having thus successively taken each member of the community in its powerful grasp and fashioned him at will, the supreme power then extends its arm over the whole community. It covers the surface of society with a network of small, complicated rules, minute and uniform, through which the most original minds and the most energetic characters cannot penetrate, to rise above the crowd.
The will of man is not shattered, but softened, bent, and guided; men seldom forced by it to act, but they are constantly restrained from acting. Such a power does not destroy, but it prevents existence; it does not tyrannize, but it compresses, enervates, extinguishes, and stupefies a people, till each nation is reduced to nothing better than a flock of timid and industrious animals, of which the government is the shepherd.”
Really strong quote made almost 200 years ago by Tocqueville, so not a new radical here. Maybe one of the most well respected historians and travelers of all time, he completed a series of writings compiled as “Democracy in America.”
Without getting in too deep and trying to play amateur scholar, the foundations of our nation in a big way revolved around writings by his mentor Montesquieu (friend of Voltaire) in many series of books (credited with the many ideas behind natural law, balance of power, post Roman democratic Republics, etc), one of which was the “Spirit of Laws”. Montesquieu points out that virtue is almost unnatural in man, so when given power, the temptation is often too great to remain virtuous. It’s one of the reasons he argues against empires and monarchies as a form of government.
Much of the later analysis on his work focuses on the idea that a free nation naturally becomes at war with itself (in the same way we are right now) because prosperity brings a sense of comfort, and comfort brings entitlement (imagine rich people thinking they are entitled to special privileges after living a certain way for so long), and entitlement invites despotism because it can preserve, most easily and without effort, that staus quo.
I feel we lie in this area right now. We are at a cross roads in this country where the sense of what is deserved has crossed the point where some are willing to give up liberty to maintain comfort, and that only leads to one conclusion – the very soft despotism of Europe (not by a man, but a system). It is a society, much of which is no longer capable of sucking the marrow out of life.
So its not actually Communism or Socialism that we fear. Those are political constructs. Its that very soft despotism that results with rule of a few or rule by an entity so large that it commands dependency, even through rule of law.
Rather than summarizing another author, let me suggest an article – Charles Murray at the American Enterprise Institute lays out some of my basic issues with this direction. The article is: The European Syndrome and the Challenge to American Exceptionalism.
By “American Exceptionalism,” he means the unique American spirit that drives people to over-achievement.
It looks at things from a completely cultural perspective removing the debate over costs or rights. Just simply compares the cultures.
And, he does address the idea of what government’s central role should be.
In this way, its not just my fear, its history. Its happened. I dont want to repeat it.
Hope you enjoy: http://american.com/archive/2009/march-2009/the-europe-syndrome-and-the-challenge-to-american-exceptionalism
October 22nd, 2009 at 5:22 pm
The American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research (AEI) is a conservative think tank founded in 1943. Its stated mission is “to defend the principles and improve the institutions of American freedom and democratic capitalism—limited government, private enterprise, individual liberty and responsibility, vigilant and effective defense and foreign policies, political accountability, and open debate.”AEI is an independent non-profit organization supported primarily by grants and contributions from foundations, corporations, and individuals. It is headquartered in Washington, D.C.
AEI scholars are considered to be some of the leading architects of the second Bush administration’s public policy. More than twenty AEI scholars and fellows served either in a Bush administration policy post or on one of the government’s many panels and commissions.
You’re poibt would be better servered if you chose a less NeoCon source.
October 22nd, 2009 at 11:07 pm
Hey guys… just want to chime in and say thanks for the dialog. Along with Chris, I would love a chance to meet in person and further the conversation. For once, things are actually progressing beyond name calling into substantive argument. Whether or not we end up agreeing, we’re all better served for it. If you guys are game, work through Chris and we’ll meet out somewhere.
October 23rd, 2009 at 12:39 am
Ok. Thanks.
Thoughts on the content?
Just looking to keep the content dialogue going.
We have plenty of time to dig into all the think tanks that crank out info for everyone.
Doesnt mean the article isnt accurate.
Side note – trying to catch Nathan Friday afternoon if you are around. You can confirm through e-mail. i sent you a message already.
October 23rd, 2009 at 12:14 pm
Yeah, I’m game. Feel free to email me.
October 23rd, 2009 at 12:54 pm
Will, Coleman and Nathan Lane have agreed to talk – in person!!
Absolutely awesome.
Nathan, myself and Mike Wilson are meeting today at 3:30pm (October 23).
And, I sent a quick late notice e-mail to Will and Coleman. Even if they can’t make it today, they are committed to sitting down.
I know I sound completely naive and idealistic, but if we can agree to not name call and sit down – anyone can.
It doesn’t mean we will agree on every point, or we will be able to convince each other of anything. Not the point.
But, it is the first step towards civil conversations and legitimate debate, not just random name calling from any side.
I said it above, and I’ll say it again – if we can do this, why can’t our elected officials?
They block each other from meetings, and very rarely open up dialogue with each other. They just shoot attacks at each other through the media. So childish.
If, We the People, need to start the process of sincere dialogue and work towards the fix without them, so be it. We’ll pull them along with this process!
October 23rd, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Chris, I look forward to meeting with you today. Hopefully others can join us, but if not I look forward to an open dialogue. Take care all…
October 24th, 2009 at 9:40 am
Chris, Mike, Nathan,
Thanks for the meet-up yesterday. I much enjoyed the laid back format where we just got to discuss our opinions and insight.
I look forward to doing it again.
October 28th, 2009 at 6:05 pm
What is it with these mean and nasty liberals, trying to stop us regular Americans from having our say about the dangerous socialist asgenda of the Obama! Now, we are waking up, and we are going to take our country back from the socialists, from the lefties, and from all the other people that hate our country and hate our freedoms. IF we let our government take our health care away from the insurance companies and put it in the government, then we are going to be no better than our neighbors up north – yes, Canada, and their socialist agenda! I don’t want the government in my health care. I want to be able to choose my own health insurance company. And, if I can’t pay, we’ll I’m not gonna be some whiner loser and ask Uncle Sam to pony up the difference. You know what they say – if you can’t pay, you can’t play. All this talk from the Obama about how insurance companies stop people from getting coverage – its a bunch of talk. Health care is a business and its our business to stay healthy. And, when you get sick, you pay. That, my friends, is what makes America the best health care in the world. Don’t let them take this away from us! Write to that Driehaus scoundrel and tell him you want government out of our health care. Keep our health ccare private. I’d rather have some problems and not get coverage than have the government run my health care and start sterilizing people and giving out abortions like Christmas cookies in December. We just MUST keep insurance a private business in America! Stop the socialists from taking away our health care freedoms.