Baby Steps
If you were following comments in this blog from “A Question of Representation,” you would have seen that people of opposing viewpoints agreed to meet on Friday to open dialogues over some common ground and better relationships amongst all of us.
It was fun.
Myself and Mike Wilson sat down with Coleman and Nathan who have posted on the CTP blog.
We talked about a number of personal things just getting to know each other, both very cool people. Both are well read, have a good sense of history and take a big picture into account in their thinking. Both were very reasonable in conversation stating points clearly and with good context.
Proving – a group of reasonable people, even with opposing view points, can sit down and have civil a conversation.
We talked about things all across the political and historical spectrum, and I wanted to share a few basic areas of agreement. Hopefully these things could serve as a starting point for future conversations.
We didn’t always agree on the exact methods in reaching some shared goals, but we did agree on the goal itself.
So, let me focus on a few of the areas leaving out methods for now:
1.Healthcare
The current system needs tweaking. Costs increasing at the current rate (well past other goods and services in the economy) is not a good thing.
Insurance companies are part of the problem. Mini monopolies have been formed in each state and the lack of competition contributes to more aggressive price increases and potentially, collusion.
2.Term limits
Extended time in office for anyone is a dangerous thing and leads to corruption.
Coleman brought up an interesting point and that is – the nature of House of the Representatives is by default a more representative position than the Senate so a system of term limits couldn’t be done in the same way.
3. Corruption
No party has a monopoly on this. Respective lobbies to both parties have way too much influence in Washington.
The funniest part in my mind is both claim innocence and point a finger at the other side. Seriously? I know they all believe the American people are a bunch of idiots and fall for this stuff.
4. Transparency
Legislation to require at least one week of public posting for any bill moving through Congress before it is voted on. Some special circumstances for emergencies could be determined. But, this is an Obama supported campaign promise we all agree with it. Hopefully it happens!!
5. Wars – Iraq and Afghanistan
Execution and management of the wars for the most part was horrible. Primary functions of the military are greatly overstated in these conflicts contributing to many of the governmental problems we now see.
Regardless of justification for entering into either war, the fundamental questions are currently – what are the obligations to the countries where troops are currently located? And, what is the desired end result? These are the questions that have to shape war policy.
6. Role of US in the world from a military standpoint.
We can’t enter every single conflict trying to play police, peacemaker or nation builder (depending on situations). US foreign policy should more clearly defined, and other nations should to do their fair share not using the US in this way either. In essence too much dependence on the US in the UN or NATO isn’t a good thing.
7. Problems with the Republicans and Democrats
Parties for extended periods of time were becoming single issue parties with no room for any opposing viewpoints in their platforms – guns rights, healthcare stances, abortion, gay rights, etc.
These were all things that forced a natural polarization of the American people and party system. This was not necessarily healthy and introduced influence and funding from very specific special interests on which respective parties came to depend.
There were a few more conversations, but hopefully this gives you a sense of the starting point.
These are baby steps. I would love to have a few ideas come out of these conversations we could all get behind – not based on party, but based on principles!
The most powerful thing in the US can be a united American people on certain issues. Just imagine that.
So, we all agreed we’d like to sit down again, invite more people and make this a regular thing!
I think we just formed a Cincinnati Roundtable…the newest and greatest think tank going.
It’s got to start somewhere. Coleman and Nathan – thanks for helping to get the baby steps going. I’d love your feedback and additions, so I look forward to any comments.
For anyone else wanting to sit down like this – open invite. I think I’ll put together a monthly schedule for meetings of any interested parties. Only basic ground rules will be civil debate!
October 24th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
Chris, Mike, and Coleman… I want to thank you for an enjoyable discussion on Friday. More of this needs to occur and I am grateful for the invitation. While we may disagree on many issues, and how to solve some of the problems we face as a nation, I think it is vital for us to be able to sit down with those who have different viewpoints and talk through our issues together. I look forward to our next meeting. You have my contact information, as I do your’s, so lets continue the dialogue. Here’s the link to my post about the march and our meeting on friday if you are interested in viewing it. http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=182024435&blogId=515699755
Take care, and I’ll talk to you soon!
October 25th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
Thanks Nathan. Clearly we thought the conversation was worth while as well.
I couldnt post to your blog because I don’t use myspace, but I did read it and thought it was very good.
I thought one of the most important things you wrote is: “If more people could sit down with others with different viewpoints, we could jointly solve many of the issues we face as a nation. I feel strongly that the media feeds this because it makes things more newsworthy. We need to pull away from the radio, computer, and TV and talk to each other more. This applies to so much more than just political issues also.”
Isnt this the truth. Not that media is completely bad, but we must remember at the end of the day – they don’t have a responsibility to drive solutions. They have a responsibility to sell advertising.
Lets keep this in mind as they glance at issues on the surface and lump us all into happy little cliches too easily painted without any in-depth research.
Anyway – I am proposing a Cincinnati Roundatable for serious people from any part of the political spectrum. If you are serious about actually making a difference, rather than just doing drive by opinions – let me know.
Coleman and Nathan – If you can pass this along to anyone you know, I’d appreciate it.
Does the evening of November 24th work for everyone? I’ll try to find a place that can accomodate multiple people somewhere in Cincinnati.
If you are reading this and want to come, please respond through the blog and I will then e-mail you personally.
Hope to hear from a lot of people!!
October 25th, 2009 at 9:40 pm
I’ll have to check my calender to see if the 24th would work. I’ll get back in touch with you once I have an idea if it will work out for me or not. Also, I like the idea of a running dialogue via a blog online. We should explore this idea further. Perhaps create a new site, with the sole intent of including multiple political views in one forum. It would be beneficial for all involved to have a voice. It would also be nice to keep it respectful to all involved, with any who cross the line into name calling, or “flaming” others being excluded from the dialogue. I have also received an offer by one of my friends to provide live onlive video streaming of a future meeting. What are your thoughts on this idea?
October 25th, 2009 at 9:58 pm
First, kudos to Nathan and Coleman for joining us. I had a great time – I always enjoy the debate and it is rare to sit down in a group that is well versed on so many topics. If only our politicians bothered to become as well informed (and principled) as the four of us have.
I think it’s a great idea to have real debate for once and a running blog would be great. Pretty much the only place you see this online is through some of the econ blogs and then it’s usually people that are for the most part on the same side. Civility is sometimes an issue, but I think we can lead by example on that. I think I’m good on the 24th and we can hopefully discuss some ideas to move things forward then.
October 25th, 2009 at 11:48 pm
While I think its great that you, coleman and nathan had a nice civil discussion and I am sorry I couldn’t be there. But then I read the Beacon’s account of your statements and actions the day afterwards at your “We Surround Them” March (Which btw is extremely pyschologically thugish”) And while even I agree with the standard points you listed above. And they are very standard and probablu alot of people would agree with them. It’s the followup and histrionics which is the most disturbing. You sat and had a rational conversation on Friday and then on Saturday Mike Wilson stating examples of how government is currently overstepping its boundaries was how the school that his son attends apparently prevented his son from eating sugar-free pudding that Wilson had packed for him because it wasn’t in one of the food groups that is approved of by the Department of Agriculture. Which is fairly ridiculous. (Oh and Mike it is YOUR LIFE. You also have a choice to pull your children from school and home school them or send them to a private school if you don’t like the system)
Personally after reading about Saturdays event that it would be a waste of time to have a coffee clatch and talk about issues you guys. You talk about civility one day here with us and then you are screaming the next day while whipping up the masses into a frenzy.
Just doesn’t sit well with you.
October 27th, 2009 at 7:36 pm
Sorry for late response. In Dallas on business, so I’ve been busy.
Real quick…
1. Thugish? – we didnt physically surround him or physically threaten him. It was meant to be symbolic as it actually went through districts of at least 4 Congressman. He is the point of focus, but I would hardly consider that thuggish. We even invited him to speak and address the crowd. We have met with him in person on more than one occasion and have never threated physical harm.
2. Look at what Nathan wrote on his blog. You can’t view things simply through the eyes of a reporter. Get out and talk to people and see what they are really like. You can take offense to Mike talking about control of diet in schools, but I’d argue that’s a great example how government can potentially manage the smallest details of our everyday day lives. Thats not a good thing, so I don’t really understand the problem. Thats a very simple example of an infringement on personal liberty and choice.
You can say what you like about your opinions on someone else’s opinions from an article, or you can actually speak with us in person and make decisions for yourself.
This choice is up to you. But, I want everyone to know – this invite is on the table. I choose to engage everyone and not just sit back and throw out random comments.
We can all talk about political figures who are “untouchable” in a way because they are far away or protected, but we don’t have that excuse with people who live close to us and are approachable and willing to meet.
Open invite!
October 28th, 2009 at 11:21 am
WHY?
Really why?
I get the emails and see the histrionics, spin, exaggerations, misinformation and lies that are sent out to your Tea Party Members.
Case in point – Email titled: Surround Recap and Special Offer.
Mike Wilson says:
“On Saturday, about 500 helped surround Driehaus’ office in the Carew Tower and joined us for a rally on the square.”
The Truth
All other reports have the number at 200 – 250
Mike Wilson says:
“Yesterday, we heard that Harry Reid is working on a version of the bill that allows states to “opt out” of the public option because he can’t get enough votes to pass it straight up. Part of this was due to Senator Joe Lieberman announcing that he would support a filibuster if the bill contained a public option.”
The Truth
Talk about state “opt-out” idea has been around for WEEKS and the talk and the decision about including it is almost a week old. Reid just publically announced it day before yesterday and Lieberman just said YESTERDAY that Joe Lieberman announcing that he would support a filibuster if the bill contained a public option. So HOW could the Opt out be partially due to Lieberman when its been talked about and worked on for days and weeks prior to Liebermans annoucement?
Mike Wilson says:
“”opt out” idea is pretty stupid since it lets you opt out of the plan, but not the taxes that fund it but that isn’t the point. The lesson to take from this is that a party with unified control and huge congressional majorities doesn’t feel comfortable passing the bill because of the electoral consequences.”
TRUTH
Its about States optiong out. As for individuals taxes IY HAS NEVER BEEN SAID (Except by Right Wingers and Tea Party members) that TAXES WILL RAISE ON THE MIDDLE CLASS TO SUPPORT HEALTH CARE REFORM. There has been talk of raising taxes on the Top 2 percent. But the top 2 percent is also the group that got the TAX BREALS under Bush that they shouldn’t have to start with that has taken money away from the Goverment.
These are examples of why its useless talking to you guys about it because you are basically talking out of both side of your faces. To us you are talking intellegently and making it intellectual and to your group you are basically lying, exagerating, and spinning the truth to get them more riled up.
IMO The CTP just like the Republicans are nothing but onstrtionist. Plain and simple. And if everyone else wants to take the high road and pretned that you aren’t thats thier choice. but I will always call your group out for what it is.
October 28th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
Will -
Who are the people reporting 200? I had not seen that anywhere. Just curious.
Ok, Reid hasnt even had access to work a bill for weeks, so I don’t understand that comment. The “bill” came out of finance committee over to the now closed door discussion, it was basically a bunch of ideas – it wasnt even really a bill.
A million ideas have been floating around, but nothing on the “Reid version” of the bill because it hasnt even existed until now.
Also – no one has explicitly stated “we are going to raise taxes on the middle class,” but the question is being dodged and ignored. Here is the clip to the famous dodge that started that commentary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTmkB3NUL6Y
If the answer is “no,” just say “no.” You have nothing to hide. It wouldnt be a story if there was a striaght answer.
By the way, it wasnt just the top 2% that got cuts under the Bush years. Please don’t put me in a position to defend Bush on anything. I am no Bush fan and have more problems with his administration than credits. I’ll leave it at that.
So, I’m waiting for the lies and exaggerations from anything that has been said. I’ve seen Mike refute comments a hundred times, and all that happens is – switch subject to something else.
Bottom line Will – you are taking people’s word for something you didnt witness and don’t know. You cite the Beacon, and thats fine, but lets not pretend they don’t have an agenda.
They just ran a story called “Teabagger Alert.”
I’m not neutral. I have a very specific agenda, but I don’t pretend that agenda doesnt exist.
What I’m asking you is – what do you know about my agenda that you don’t read from outside sources?
You clearly follow us very closely. Its a strange obsession to watch from the distance but never actually engage. You clearly care because you devote a lot of time to it. Why?
What is your goal is spending this much time on what you consider a fringe group who no one cares about, lies all the time, can’t accomplish anything, etc, etc.
You know what I do with groups like that on any extreme – ignore them. They can’t be taken seriously. I ignore the ones on the right and the ones on the left.
I just addressed your points from the newsletter.
I ask you to sit down. You won’t.
You continue to throw slanders without a basis for truth.
I just don’t understand that.
If you care so much, and you need truth to be heard so badly – then sit down, in person and deconstruct our “lies” point by point.
We will record it. Even tape it. And you can blast to youtube, and I will publish the script on this blog. I’ll give to the Enquirer or any other outlets you choose.
If your quest is for truth – let the sun shine on everything!
I’m not afraid because I have nothing to hide. I do not seek the anonymity of commentaries and blog posts. I seek honest engagement, education and debate on real issues.
Truth my friend. I am seeking the truth.
Your invitation still stands.
October 28th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
If you are seeking the truth perhaps you should start SPEAKING the truth.
So I suppose EVERY outside source is wrong then. I need not meet you I get the emails. I read them as for watching you closely and it being a strange obsession you seem to do the same to whats going on in goverment and where you think the goverement is becoming dangerous I think that you have the potential to be dangerous. Its all double speak and rhetoric. You are right itwasn’t just the top too percent. But they got the most. And before you start in saying “well they made the most” read this.
http://www.ctj.org/html/gwb0602.htm
Also you give me a YouTube link from JULY about a Press Confrence with Robert Gibbs where Gibbs deals with a question from a repoter aboout Obama’s campaign promise about Obama not raising taxes on the middle class. That ha sabsolutely NOTHING to do with Mike Wilson and his assertation that Taxes will raise to fund the public option and an opt out won;t let you opt out of paying those imaginary raised taxes.
As usual, double talk, spin, rhetoric on your part
Its not slander when its the truth.
And and btw. We all know when Tea Party Events are endorsed by The Ohio Liberty Council that you and Mike ARE the Ohio Liberty Council.
Want to get together and talk? Okay. But instead of “recording it” and sending it to The Enguirer how about getting together with a reporter from CityBeat and letting him sit in to record and report it?
October 28th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
Seriously – are you going down the road of exaggeration?
I didnt say every source. I’m simply saying you didnt hear it, and you do hear it through pieces from biased sources.
You pull single lines from newsletters and make broad conclusions.
My favorite comment is me being obsessed about what is going on in government.
Thats a bad thing??
We argue all the time, the reason the government has gotten so out of control is that we werent watching it. Thats kind of how Democratic-Republics function…we elect officals, and are supposed to hold them accountable. Admittedly – we havent been doing that.
Now, you are condemning me for trying to watch government actions which we consider to be bad for the American people.
Yeah, that is SO radical. Totally crazy. WOW!! I am out there.
Come on man.
Its weird. I answer your accusations, and you say it is double talk and spin.
Gibbs was being asked how ALL this proposed craziness is going to be funded. That was his response. Not such a stretch. I’m still looking to the answer to that question myself.
Yes, myself, Mike and few other people started the OLC. Thats not a secret. Its right on the website. We are proud of it. Not exactly a secret. Don’t get that reference at all.
Of course CityBeat can be present. I don’t care who has it recorded. I care that its truth thats on the record.
You and a friend sit down with myself and Mike. We’ll cover a variety of topics. I’m not proposing a “debate.” Just a discussion through issues.
We video and record the whole thing.
Done!
Give me some dates you are available, and I’ll talk to Mike about making it happen.
October 28th, 2009 at 6:10 pm
“We argue all the time, the reason the government has gotten so out of control is that we werent watching it. Thats kind of how Democratic-Republics function…we elect officals, and are supposed to hold them accountable. Admittedly – we havent been doing that.”
Yea and surprisingly NOW after 8 years of utter bull in the Giverment viola. You all care. Pffft.
Anyway, The Goverment can not always 100 pervent of the time do what you want. Unfortunate yes. And I am willing to bet that the people that you decry the most happen to be the ones that you and your’s didn;t vote for. But regardless. THEY were elected. This isn’t Central America where you can overthrow the Goverment with a coup.
Amd talk about craziness. OLC endorses CTOP so you basically endorse yourself. What interested me is whats going on financially behind closed doors and since OLC is a 501 Non-Profit.
I’ve contacted CityBeat and I’ll let you know what happems.
As for puling single lines from the mewsletters heres the whole thing.
I’ll be in touch.
Surround Recap and Special Offer
Dear Fellow Citizens and Taxpayers,
Our series of “We Surround Him” protests last week were a huge success. WIth minimal planning, hundreds of dedicated conservatives manned exits ramps on I-275 and held signs and handed out tens of thousands of flyers on the health care issue. On Saturday, about 500 helped surround Driehaus’ office in the Carew Tower and joined us for a rally on the square.
The response was overwhelmingly positive by those who received it and we accomplished our three main goals:
Increase the pressure on Steve Driehaus to live up to his promises and vote NO on the bills before Congress
Inform the public on the issue and move the needle on public opinion
Introduce new people to the tea party movement and continue to demonstrate that we are sober ones with common sense and it’s our Congress that are the true mobsters
Please accept my sincere thanks to those that took the time to be engaged. Movements like ours across the country are making a difference. Yesterday, we heard that Harry Reid is working on a version of the bill that allows states to “opt out” of the public option because he can’t get enough votes to pass it straight up. Part of this was due to Senator Joe Lieberman announcing that he would support a filibuster if the bill contained a public option.
I would like to point out that Reid’s “opt out” idea is pretty stupid since it lets you opt out of the plan, but not the taxes that fund it but that isn’t the point. The lesson to take from this is that a party with unified control and huge congressional majorities doesn’t feel comfortable passing the bill because of the electoral consequences. If we had sat on our hands the past few months, this would have passed in July.
Special Offer
I am very excited to announce that our VP – National Affairs and Strategy, Justin Binik-Thomas has written a book. It is titled Profit is Not a Dirty Word – Free Markets and Grassroots Conservatism in America.
For the next two days (through 10/29), the book can be pre-ordered for $15 instead of it’s normal price of $20. Half of the proceeds from the pre-order period will be donated to the Tea Party.
The book is available on our home page – http://www.cincinnatiteaparty.org.
More will follow in the next few days as we continue to keep up the pressure on health care reform and start to re-engage on climate change. Much has been said lately about a conference scheduled for December in Copenhagen. Watch this video for a quick primer on the issue.
Sincerely,
Mike Wilson
Founder/President
Cincinnati Tea Party
October 28th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
We aren’t advocating overthrowing the government. What are you talking about?
What I meant from the newsletter is that can’t define an entire philosophy by highlights. Makes no sense.
OLC “endorses” Cincinnati tea party? What does that mean? The Cincinnati tea party isn’t seeking an endorsement, nor did it request one, nor was one printed. What are you talking about?
By the way, Cincinnati tea party is a non-profit as well. What does that prove? Churches are non-profits. The tea in china is $6/lb. And?
I have no idea where you are going with that.
Let me know what dates you have!
October 28th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
Actually I am surprised that The CTP is a non-profit hopefully not a 501(c)(3)since all it seems to do is lobby
http://www.irs.gov/charities/article/0,,id=163392,00.html
Oh and I will let you know what dates I have.
October 28th, 2009 at 9:01 pm
Wow will, you sure got us on election law and lobbying practices.
Good thing neither group is a 501c3!
Believe it or not, you can be non-profit and not be a c3.
Though even if either group were a c3, we would have the ability to 20% of funding toward lobbying efforts…legally.
How do you think all these shady organizations dump millions in lobbying efforts without trouble?
You can give me the rest of your theories when we meet!
October 28th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
And you can give me more of your spin when we meet.
Feel free to bring financial paperwork
Chow
October 28th, 2009 at 11:54 pm
Don’t want to rehash everything as I’m tired, but a few points.
1. My son is 5 and goes to a private, Montessori kindergarten. This wasn’t the lunch the school provided, but the one that I packed and put into his lunch box. There are other examples, but this was a great one of a government that has overstepped its bounds. Are you arguing that this is a necessary restriction on my and my family’s freedoms?
2. I did a quick guess of the crowd. I didn’t count them one-by-one, and I haven’t seen a report in the 200-250 range.
3. About taxes, I didn’t give much detail. Two real quick points. Taxes will be raised on more than the top 2%. The main way to raise revenue in most versions of the bill is the tax on so-called “cadillac” plans. Ask some of your union friends how they feel about their gold plated coverage – http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1009/28013.html. Obama attacked McCain on this in campaign, but seems perfectly comfortable with it now.
You can mince words all you want, but employers treat these taxes as part of their personnel expenses. That means wages will stagnate or fall to compensate, or jobs will be lost. I count that as a tax increase.
I also think that other taxes will eventually be raised to cover the bill. Nobody is talking about it, but it is a logical consequence of what is being enacted. Every single time this has been tried in all of recorded history (check out the initial version of Medicare, or look at Massachusetts or Tennessee), it has ended up costing more than expected. Given our record deficits, we have little to ability absorb cost overruns without tax increases.
To summarize topic 3 – unions (generally on your side) perceive a tax increase in the works and I think my expectation of other taxes going up is reasonable. I may end up being wrong, but it is a reasonable conclusion to draw, not doublespeak.
4. I’m utterly confused about what your concern is about the OLC and CTP. This isn’t something that anybody is hiding. I started CTP back in February. I met Chris in early April and by May he was a big part of what we do. The end of the month, he and I along with a few others started the Ohio Liberty Council. I am currently a board member of the OLC and President of CTP. Chris is a board member of CTP and President of the OLC.
5. We have nothing to hide, but I’m not bringing you stacks of paperwork to sift through. CTP is required to report donations and expenditures to the IRS. We do so. If you have anything in particular you want to see, I’ll be glad to share some of it with you. The overwhelming majority of the donations have been $50 or less. The largest has been $1000.
Will, I can only ask that you take a minute and give us the benefit of the doubt – if only just slightly. Chris and I have agreed to meet you in person with reporter present. If we were really as bad as you seem to think, do you think we’d be comfortable making that offer?
We are sincere in our desire to build bridges. Let us know your dates and I look forward to meeting you in person.
October 30th, 2009 at 10:08 am
Chris, I would love to join the roundtable discussions. Might be nice to also invite some of my friends who have different view points. So please put me on the list.